The topic of women in ministry is a hot potato in many churches in the West, in some cases even a denomination splitter. So, when I got a chance to talk at length to a leader of a Chinese house church network, I decided to bring up the issue to find out how the Chinese underground church deals with this. The answers I got were surprising, just as my questions were surprising to him.
When I first brought up the topic, this leader, whom we shall call pastor Gideon, told me that in at least 99% of the Chinese house churches, women function in the same roles as men without any issue. He told me the majority of house churches are planted and led by women. He considered this a matter of course, since women are “more emotional.”
I reacted with surprise, telling him that this is the very reason many in the West do not consider women as suitable for church leadership, or even leadership in general. He clarified that women generally have a better understanding on an emotional level of the cross and are spiritually more open. This makes them often better suited to communicate the gospel and plant churches.
But churches in China are incredibly Scripture focussed and believers often know their Bibles better than those in the West. So, they can’t have missed Pauls verses about women having to be quiet in church. It turned out they had not missed those verses, but to them it seemed clear that they were written to deal with problems in a specific church and were not meant as a command for all churches everywhere.
So, what would a Chinese house church do if one of its members would take another viewpoint on this issue?
“It sometimes happens,” he admitted, “when we send our young people to study theology abroad, that they return with these ideas. We have to then deal with it.” He gave an example of a young man who was chosen by his house church to study at a seminary abroad. His pastor, a woman, and the church gave very sacrificially to make it possible for him to get a theology degree, in the hope that it would really benefit the church.
When he returned with his degree, he told his pastor that she was sinning by leading the church and that as a woman she was supposed to be quiet in church. Pastor Gideon became involved in the dispute. He was angry with the young man for rebuking his leader in this matter. He told him, “So she should not lead the church? Then who should lead it? You?” The young men ended up apologizing and there was a happy end. But I asked what would happen if he had insisted on his new theological viewpoints.
“We cannot tolerate it, we would have to break fellowship”, Pastor Gideon replied. “It would be dangerous to the church. Without women leaders, what would be left of the church of China? We would not be here.”
Now it was his turn to ask questions. “Why are women disrespected in churches in the West? Is it because they are repressed in society?” I answered that in society women can do whatever they like.
“So, they are only disrespected in the church?”, he asked. I explained that churches do not consider their theological viewpoints as disrespectful to women. They simply believe men and women were created to fill different roles in society and the church. Males are made for leadership roles and earning money, women are made to run the house and nurture children.
But pastor Gideon was not buying this. He still thought that was disrespecting women’s abilities and that it was a misunderstanding. Women and men are certainly different, and these differences are important in the marriage relationship and for building a family. But in the church, they should not matter. There, we are brothers and sisters and therefore equals.
I asked him if there was sometimes a problem with churches in the West they partner with. He did remember an occasion when several Chinese pastors were ordained. Representatives of an American Baptist church were present. They objected when they realised one of the pastors to be ordained was a woman. “We just told them that we respect them and likewise they must respect us. This is how we do it.”
I told him I was surprised that the Chinese church really defended their women leaders. “We do not defend them,” he answered, “they can do that themselves”.
Through the whole bible it seemed that the man ist the head and the women the support.
Like Christ ist the head of the man and now it her complicated:Like God ist the head of Christ 1.Chorinthians 11,3
Honestly it’s mich more convinient if we make no differences and we put Christ in the midst.
During reading the bible the reason seems simple: man have it easier fokus ob truth and womens sometimes mix truth with feelings/emotions/wishes…
but du they want,they can walk very strong straight whatever sind they seek(can bei also focus in truth).
1.what means 1.chorinthians 11,3 (God ist the head oft Christ)?
2.one preacher believe, that the curse came through the sind of Eve (the man will reign over you)
and that it stopped at the cross means both are the same.
any one warnt to answer,please so it.
Chiese Christians and story is very encouraging,nur In also warnt to unterstand God there more
in the past womens supportet man and God used this greatly for world Mission.
likewise I red that behind a revival (Wales 1904-1906) which had worldwide influence
Womens had a great influence,sonetimes als leaders…
I have recently been studying on the meaning of the word translated head. I have read many books on this issue. Probably the best one so far has been “One in Christ” by Philip B. Payne. He gives 13 reasons why the word should be translated “source“. It is a modern understanding of head as authority.
and the word head did not come to mean leader until 1300 years after the early church.
Some thoughts and observations: in looking up Greek words for definitions and looking at the whole passage and pondering in relation to other passages in the Bible – because God is not a liar so everything in the Bible must not conflict with any part of it in the proper understanding it was intended, and much prayer – simply asking the real author what he intended:
I learned that one of the Greek meanings of head was origin- just like one of the English meanings is origin – like the head of a river or a river..
Origin works wonderfully in the Ephesians 5 passage because Adam – the first husband was the start of Eve – the origin. It’s an amazing picture of oneness unity. Reading submit as meaning unity/Support beautifully fits the entire passage of Ephesians 5:1-21 and the rest of 5- and the bigger passage starting in Ephesians 3 through 6.
As origin, God, the father was the start of Jesus at the point Jesus dove out of heaven into Mary’s womb and became His Son. Becoming his father who begat his son made him the source/father/origin. Obviously, Jesus was with the father and spirit from eternity past. But God always knew all things so the three already always knew Jesus would become the Son. God doesn’t live in time the way we do.
Jesus was part of creation (John1) and the origin/starting point of the church and of man kind – which started with Adam. Eve was made from Adam. This head is not talking about authority, but about origin – where everybody came from.
1Cor11:3,8,12 talk about origin.
The subject immediately followed advice given about idols. Clearly, he was addressing specific problems that congregation was dealing with.
Apparently it was a cultural thing for respectable women to wear head coverings – but courtesans- or prostitutes used a symbol of an uncovered head to attract business.
Something in whatever the congregation were struggling with dealt with who came first. Apparently was also a goddess culture idea that women came before men – and something about it was causing problems in some of the congregations. It was a city with a massive prostitution based temple and huge wealth because of it. They were immersed in a society of illicit sex.
Though we can glean wonderful tidbits out of concepts, a significant portion of the New Testament letters were written as responses to reports we don’t have, and dealt with specific issues of those congregations within their culture and experience – and it would not be wise to try to apply them as doctrine in our culture – they’re out of context because we don’t have the original reports.
By the way, the patriarchal denominations in the west that believe only men can be pastors and church leaders. Send women missionaries out to evangelize, start and pastor churches. They get around it by calling the missionaries.
I hope this helps. We need to be careful to not read our own beliefs or Pharisees type ideas into God’s word. He has a labor shortage, and he told every single believer to be ready to share the gospel. He’s the one who calls and decides, and we simply need to bow our knee to him and let him do the choosing.
The statement he made to eve about her husband ruling over her, was not part of the curse. It was a warning that sin radically changed their marriage relationship because her bigger stronger husband had a lust for power, and he would dominate her. Throughout the history of the world, most cultures Have had male domination of women along with domestic abuse.
The verse in Romans clearly says that all believers are redeemed from all curse of sin. I know a woman who had two children as an unbeliever and a third as a believer. The difference in the pain of childbirth was like night and day after she had been redeemed from the curse.
here is part of the problem as to why English speakers think that men are in leadership in marriage and the church.
It is because of the word “head”!—-. in English head can mean a body part of it can mean the leader. and that is the problem. the word head in the verse where it says the man is the head of the wife, we automatically think it means leader…And that is where the mix-up comes in,
Head did not have leader as one of its meanings until 1300-1500 AD, in England, in English.
When Paul wrote that verse he used the Greek word “kephale” which can mean head (body part) or can mean source or origin like the headwaters or source of a river.
If Paul had wanted to say that the man IS the leader or boss in the family he would have used the word archon. or other Greek words that actually mean boss or leader. Instead, he used kephale probably pointing out that the man is the source of the woman as she came from Adam’s side.
the other part of the problem is the patriarchal complementarians who want to be the leaders or bosses over women and take full advantage of a few verses taken out of context and use them to their advantage to put themselves in charge. The bible calls them wolves and weeds. .
How sad that if China followed the beliefs of the West, there would hardly be a Christian church left there. Is the West so committed to keeping women out of leadership that they’d practically end Christianity in China to do it? Does that seem like a thing Jesus would do?
Is the gospel message being spread so quickly and easily that we only need half the church to do it, and the other half is to keep quiet? Even if God has clearly given them gifts to share the gospel?
when i tell patriarchal complementarian believers that the underground church in Iran is led by women or that many churches in China have women pastors they say the rudest things. They say they are outright sinning or they should read their bible. I cannot understand their lack of empathy for Christian sisters in China or Iran who face danger daily just for being a Christian.
But we get the same treatment from the pat/comps here in the western world. The worst I have ever heard was from the mouth of a so Baptist woman who is highly respected as a teacher of women (she says it is sin for a woman to teach men)
On a youtube video discussing should women attend seminary…. She said yes as long as women do not take classes for pastors/preachers. She called those women “accomplices to murder”!!!!!!!!!!! comparing them to those who learn how to do abortions even if they never perform one. Then she said the seminary needs to repent for allowing that!!!!!!!!!!!! I am speechless over that hatred spewing from her mouth but i thought does the janitor have to repent too!
As a female pastor with three theological degrees from 3 different denominational universities in the west this piece of writing hit me so hard. it always feels like you have to be twice as educated, twice as talented etc to be taken half as seriously. This writing was like salve for my soul. praise the Lord for the Chinese church.
I would love to make contact with you and know more or find out where I can learn more about Pastor Gideon and their world of you are open to it.
I doubt it was an “American Baptist Church” the denomination. It was an American baptist church (either independent Baptist or SBC) which objected. ABC has been ordaining women for about 150 years.